Topics:A. Importance of Accent Marks
B. Coming unimportance
C. Teaching Accent Marks
D. Grading Accent Marks?
E. Spanish Accent MarksInstructions and template for using the US-International keyboard
97/02 From-> "Marilyn V.J. Barrueta" <mbarruet@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Sorry -- I may be from the Dark Ages...... Accents distinguish words.
If
students don't become accustomed to them from the very beginning, they
never do. Those who will take Achievement Tests, and the AP exams,
will
be penalized totally. We do them no favor to overlook them, if we want
them to be literate writers of the language. I once had another teacher
tell me that she took off "only for the *important* accent marks".
To
me, that was simply adding another burden to students -- that of
figuring out/remembering which were *important*.
======================
97/02 From-> "Marilyn V.J. Barrueta" <mbarruet@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: Accents
More thoughts on the accent mark question:
This is my 40th year; I have taught thousands of students, from all
levels from 1-6 and AP. I can honestly say that I have *never* had
a
student who could not learn accentuation -- if not perfectly, as least
to a reasonable degree. And I have *never* had one who failed because
of
it -- at least not after one marking period. Students rise to the level
of your expectations, and as long as you're a reasonable person in
general, make clear your standards from the very beginning, and are
prepared to give some help to those who truly need it, this is not
the
problem (IMHO) that people sometimes make it out to be. It's amazing
to
me that people can have students memorize fairly long lists of rules
and/or acronyms for various grammatical points, but don't think their
students can handle the 3 -- yes, 3 -- rules for accents!
As for those who are "poor spellers" -- unless they are LD in some way,
many of them are poor spellers because they have been allowed to be
by
teachers who didn't set and maintain standards. When we excuse them
now
for that reason, we are just perpetuating that poor teaching.
I'm sorry if this sounds very harsh and possibly old-fashioned, but
unless someone can prove to me that the gene pool has changed, I find
it
hard to accept that today's students can't do what yesterday's did.
Of
course, I often hear from teachers that *they* don't understand
accentuation -- now that's another problem!
Marilyn V.J. Barrueta
======================
97/02 From-> Sue Steele <ssteele@bas.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Accents
I am also an English teacher, and I expect my English students to spell
correctly. It all comes down to expectations as Marilyn so eloquently
stated. The other French teacher does not count accents. Thus when
I
inherit those kids, there are some problems with them and their parents,
but I do not back down. It takes the first nine weeks for students
to
get used to the accent rule, and then there is no problem the rest
of
the year.
Sue Steele
======================
97/02 From-> BRIERE Kathryn <KBRIERE@apw.cnyric.org>
Subject: Re: accent marks
IF you were teaching students how to talk to a computer (that is, use
a
word processing program or a spreadsheet) would you care if the student
pressed ALT-F4 or CTRL-F4? Would it make a difference? Yes it would!
How
about teaching Internet navigation? Would it make a difference if a
student placed a forward slash (/) or a backslash (\) in a netsite
address? Or if the student forgot the tilde (~)?
BRIERE Kathryn
======================
97/02 From-> eapetri@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: accent marks
I agree with Bob, especially about spelling errors on job applications.
For more than twenty years I had many opportunities to read letters
of
application for teaching positions. Can you guess what happened to
applicants who had these errors in their applications? Right in the
round file.
Erwin Petri
======================
97/02 From-> James May <jaimemay@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
I agree. My favorite memo from the school office, in 27 years of
teaching is "Please make a list of all Spanish sir-named (sic) students
to the office." This was written by the vice-principal!
James May
======================
97/02 From-> Robert Ponterio <PONTERIOR@SNYCORVA.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Re: accent marks
>>I do the same thing. However, I think it is worth pointing out that many *educated* native speakers do not use them accurately.
>True. It is also true that many *educated* speakers of English here don't seem to know the difference between "it's" and "its"; "their" and "there"; "sights" and "sites" -- etc. etc. Maybe others don't form a judgment based on writing like this, but many do.
>Marilyn -- whose father thought that a person's grammar was a hallmark of his/her character
Marilyn is right on target. I almost posted the same message except
that
my parents were not interested in spelling or grammar, but I figured
out
early on that we are all inevitably judged by the way we communicate
(among other things). Perhaps because I was so poor in spelling that
I
was very conscious of how much it interfered with my writing (so I
worked very hard at it). Or perhaps because I saw that the slightest
error in the language in a computer program always seemed multiplied
a
thousand fold.
In any case, these kids will not get a job if there are 100 candidates
and they have a spelling error, accent or other, on the first page
of
their application. Sloppy letters with spelling and grammatical errors
risk getting tossed to the circular file in the real world. Talk about
losing points! Better they learn early to avoid those roadblocks, there
are plenty of others to deal with.
I don't think there is one right way to handle this, and each teacher
really has to decide what works best.
Robert Ponterio
======================
97/02 From-> Ron Takalo <TAKALO@nwciowa.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Dear Marilyn and other listeros:
I have tried to refrain from jumping in on this one, but according to
the number of messages, it just won’t go away, so here are my "dos
centavos"
1. I suspect many native speakers (outside of academe) don't use accent
marks expecially when writing hand written letters, because in their
culture or sub-culture, (again, outside of academe) it is not perceived
as important. Of course, in formal writing they strive to use them,
but
I have experienced several master's level students from Latin America
who have asked me (a veritable gringo) to correct their paper for
accents! I suspect that our gringo culture is more anal retentive in
that regard (this is a little strong, but this is how I feel about
it at
this time - those of you who feel differently, educate me!)
2. As far as waiting too long to insist on accents - well, we probably
all draw the line somewhere. If we cannot expect to have our students
write perfect Spanish from the beginning, we have to be able to let
some
things slide for awhile.
3. BTW, I always teach the rules for using accents, and the reasons
for
using them (I haven't seen anyone mention "to break dipthongs" but
maybe
I missed it). But I realize others may put it off longer than I do.
4. Sometimes we can be so intense on "correctness" that valid content
and the ability to communicate (even with errors) becomes lost in the
process.
5. A personal note to Marilyn - I appreciate your comments, and I have
long admired your insights. This is really the first time I have felt
compelled to offer comments on your comments!
Ron Takalo
======================
97/02 From-> Antonio Ruiz Tinoco <ctinoco@KOMABA.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: accent marks
On 11 Feb 97 at 7:51, Richard E. Boswell wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, JULIA GUERRERO wrote: > EXCELENTE. POR FIN LOS MAESTROS SE ESTAN DANDO CUENTA QUE EL ACENTO > ES ABSOLUTAMENTE NECESARIO PARA ESCRIBIR ESPANOL. >
>Why are accents so important? I bet you that any intelligent and educated speaker of Spanish can read without any problem a text written with all the accents missing.
>RBoswell VestalNY
Richard,
Why are vowels so important? I bet you that any intelligent and educated
speaker of Spanish can read without any problem a text written with
all
the vowels missing too.
Reading and deciphering are things apart, aren't they?
Exaggerating ;-)
Antonio Ruiz Tinoco
======================
97/02 From-> "Marilyn V.J. Barrueta" <mbarruet@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: accent marks
>I do the same thing. However, I think it is worth pointing out that many *educated* native speakers do not use them accurately.
True. It is also true that many *educated* speakers of English here
don't seem to know the difference between "it's" and "its"; "their"
and
"there"; "sights" and "sites" -- etc. etc. Maybe others don't form
a
judgment based on writing like this, but many do.
Marilyn -- whose father thought that a person's grammar was a hallmark
of his/her character
Marilyn V.J. Barrueta
97/02 From-> "Helen V. Jones" <hjones@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: Accents
>To piggy-back on Gene's last sentence -- some people have written that
their students are not aimed at AP and Spanish Achievements. My answer
to that is that of course not, not if we teach from the beginning with
that expectation. I've had students -- and I'm sure you all have, too --
who started out with little interest, merely doing a course for whatever
reason, who turn out to want to continue as far as possible. If we assume
from the beginning that they won't do so, we teach to a self-fulfilling
prophecy.
>Marilyn
Amen, Marilyn. I recall about 15 years ago the teacher's edition of
the
textbook we were using would occasionally include a note to the teacher
saying, more or less, "With slower students you might omit this
section." In my diabolical way, I always read that note to the kids
asking those who wanted to learn only the easy parts of the language
to
raise their hands. Nobody ever did.
Why should we assume that so many of our student will be unable to learn
to spell, use accent marks, memorize vocabulary, master the subjunctive,
etc., etc. when those things were givens for anybody who ever studied
a
FL in the past. Do these kids belong to a different species?
Helen V. Jones
======================
97/02 From-> "Helen V. Jones" <hjones@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: accent marks
According to Richard Lee:
>I have been told by various colleagues over the years that it's not
reasonable to teach the subjunctive at all, at least at the high school
level. It's far too difficult and really isn't necessary, according to
them.
I wonder what those colleagues teach/use for formal commands.
Infinitives? I, too, have heard that copout for not teaching the
subjunctive.
I suspect that many of our colleagues don't really understand the points
they choose not to teach. I know for a fact that many of our English
teachers avoid teaching grammar entirely because they never understood
it themselves...and that is evident in their speaking and writing.
Helen V. Jones
======================
97/02 From-> Catherine Jolivet <cjolivet@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Hello everyone!
Just thought that if WE are able to converse together in French, Spanish
or other languages which use accents via e-mail which does not always
allow us to use diacritic symbols, then accents don't seem to be
essential to successful communication, right? So the question is: is
it
more important to write accents accurately or to communicate
successfully? Or are both equally important? Perhaps the overall level
of students is also to be taken into consideration: take off points
at
higher levels of instruction for missing accents? Consider also the
scenario of native speakers who do not use accents at all. They are
out
there! What do you all think?
Catherine Jolivet
======================
97/02 From-> "Richard E. Boswell" <boswell@binghamton.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
I notice that most of my French correspondents are meticulous about
the
acute accent over a past participle but not about accents appearing
earlier in the word. For example, <<eleve'>>, where the accent
mark is
missing from the first 'e'. To take a rigid approach to accents is
to
falsify their importance.
Richard E. Boswell
======================
97/02 From-> Mary Kathleen Blanchard <lngmkb@aug.edu> Organization:
Augusta State University
Subject: Re: accent marks
Catherine, I am so glad you brought up these points. I agree with every
one of them! I know so many native French people whose accents in their
writing come out as almost straight lines above the vowels. And I've
become very accustomed to reading French w/o accents on e-mail (I do
still use them in my writing!)....I wonder if they will gradually
disappear from French, except where they differentiate between meaning.
Mary Kathleen Blanchard
97/02 From-> Francie Cutter <cutter@eta.k12.mn.us>
Subject: Re: Accents
>More thoughts on the accent mark question:
A dear friend of mine, now retired, uses an excellent example when
teaching students the importance of accent marks. He juxtaposes letters
in English:
P R
O Q
P B
N M
I L
F E
Then he shows that the only difference between these letters is "a
little line"! Thus he explains accents marks as "little lines" which
are
essential to the understanding and accentuation of the word. Seems
to
impress students with the importance of accent marks.
Francie Cutter
======================
97/02 From-> Lynn Nuthals <coqui49@online.dct.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Well,
I feel a little estranged from the majority of responses. I treat
accents with great respect. If a word requires an accent and none
occurs, it is wrong. How can we teach that some accents are important
and other are not? What do you do when you start to teach subjunctive
and a student can't distinguish from the present subjunctive first
person singular and the preterit indicative first person singular?
How
does one tell the reflexive pronoun "se" from the first person singular
of the present indicative verb saber?
I have found it easier to teach totally correct from the start. It
eliminates a lot of disappointment later, both in ap testing and college
courses.
Lynn Nuthals
======================
97/02 From-> Gene Foldenauer <cnhsfld@mail.hsonline.net>
Subject: Re: Accents
The accent mark question is interesting. The simple fact is the
difference between correct and incorrect. Also I have to wonder why
we
would/should lower standards. Does 2 + 2 no longer = 4. I agree with
Marilyn: take a deduction and have them learn the accent marks. I have
taught almost 30 years and have found that kids can learn and do some
pretty remarkable things when expected to do so.
Gene Foldenauer
======================
97/02 From-> "Marilyn V.J. Barrueta" <mbarruet@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: Accents
>I have taught almost 30 years and have found that kids can learn and do some pretty remarkable things when expected to do so.
To piggy-back on Gene's last sentence -- some people have written that
their students are not aimed at AP and Spanish Achievements. My answer
to that is that of course not, not if we teach from the beginning with
that expectation. I've had students -- and I'm sure you all have, too
--
who started out with little interest, merely doing a course for whatever
reason, who turn out to want to continue as far as possible. If we
assume from the beginning that they won't do so, we teach to a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
Marilyn V.J. Barrueta
======================
97/02 From-> "Marilyn V.J. Barrueta" <mbarruet@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: French accent marks--to count or not
In my curmudgeonly way, I treat
>this as a major error, not because it is, but because I'm simply sick
of seeing it.
But this discussion is an important one: "How do you grade a written
sentence?" What criteria do you use? For the student in French 4 who
writes "nous avons alles," or "nous sommes alle," do you give equal
or
different weight? I'd be interested in this whole question getting
discussed.
Chris, bless you for the "I'm simply sick of seeing it"! I, too, would
like to see your new direction discussed, if only because I'm sick
of
seeing "me gusto," "busco por," "pregunto para" and several dozen others
from 5th and 6th year students! I'm considering a posted list of "do
this and die!"
Marilyn V.J. Barrueta
======================
97/02 From-> Liz Klem <BKlem58263@aol.com>
Subject: Re: French accent marks--to count or not
Regarding "I'm sick of seeing..." I gave my third year students a list
of what were actually very basic mistakes with the understanding that
they could not earn an A in formal written assignments if I saw these
errors. Oh the agony and exclamations but oh my how many students
managed to get those A's. I do believe that it takes time, not just
teaching and learning, to absorb a second language and patience to
let
them grow into it.
Liz Klem
======================
97/02 From-> "Marilyn V.J. Barrueta" <mbarruet@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: accent marks
I think a number of people have stated an opinion -- but I would respond
to these two points --
1) I can't imagine letting beginning students omit accents with no
penalty, and then start penalizing later on when habits are already
formed -- I hardly think this is fair to students.
2) There are native speakers of English out there whose writing is
terrible, too -- is that the level we wish to inspire in education?
Marilyn V.J. Barrueta
======================
97/02 From-> Keiko Schneider <kschnei@NMJC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Accents
I study Spanish, and take 302 Improving Spanish Writing Skills, and
the
main thing we are going over is acentos.
Spanish accents have rules, but they are not that complicated, and I
don't quite understand why the third-year student, some are minor or
major in Spanish, still have troubles. Probably they have to be taught
strictly from the beginning.
(I am pretty mean when it comes to correcting Japanese homework, but
that is the only way to make students more perfect, I believe.)
Keiko Schneider
======================
97/02 From-> Keith Swayne <Keith_Swayne@mindlink.bc.ca>
Subject: accent marks
It is difficult for my kids to get the accent marks right in French
when
the teachers do not seem to expect them to ever speak the language
in a
meaningful way. My point is that, as important as diacritical marks
are,
they are not very meaningful to kids with extremely limited spoken
proficiency.
One contributor to this discussion pointed out, correctly, that since
we
expect accurate spelling in English we should expect the same in another
language. The catch is that diacriticals and spelling make much more
sense when you can speak the language. Our students already speak
English. Imagine teaching spelling and punctuation to children at the
same time as they learn to speak their first words.
Until students has some spoken proficiency, it appears to me that
penalizing them for the missing accent marks that don't affect
pronunciation or distinguish between different words is like pushing
a
stick into the spokes of a their bike when they're just getting the
hang
of staying upright.
In Spanish, accents are much simpler and much more indicative of the
spoken language. In most dialects of French that is not the case for
many diacriticals. The effect on my kids is that they are greatly
discouraged when they feel they're getting a grasp on the big picture,
and may be able to do something useful, then they get docked marks
on a
written test for things that even francophone kids struggle with. If
their teachers have their way, I expect my kids will be masters of
French orthography, but incapable of having a simple chat in Quebec.
I am Canadian. I speak Spanish almost all the time at home with my kids
(not my native language). I am trying to the speak French with them
more
often now as well. But they think that French is a difficult code with
zero-tolerance for error. Immersion students don't struggle with this,
by and large. It's the obsessive "focus on form" and almost complete
disinterest in "focus on meaning" that fuels much of the distaste many
Canadian kids have for French. I find it very sad in our would-be
bilingual country. We are quite successful in preventing anglophone
children from becoming bilingual. We don't actually speak the language,
but our spelling is rather impressive.
Keith Swayne
======================
97/02 From-> Christopher Lowell <crlowell@msn.com>
Subject: French accent marks--to count or not
Well, folks, I'm feeling persnickety in my old age, but doggone it,
how
can we pretend that accents aren't important when, in French, their
misuse can change the meaning of a word? If you want to ask your friend
to have a peach or to go fishing, in French, it's rather important
(if
one is writing such a bizarre invitation) NOT to ask him/her about
"sin", which of course one would if one were not careful about such
matters as accents. When the position of an accent can change a word's
meaning, therefore, I count it as I count any other word. When it
doesn't, I usually revert to my usual pussy-cat status, and am more
laid
back about it. An exception is the word "apres," which we have all
seen
written with an accent aigu for years. In my curmudgeonly way, I treat
this as a major error, not because it is, but because I'm simply sick
of
seeing it.
Unlike some of my colleagues, whose precision I admire, (but whose
mathematical formulas I don't have in me to emulate), I subjectively
evaluate how vital to communication the written accent is in the
sentence and take it from there. If a student writes: Hier soir, je
suis
alle a l'eglise apres avoir ecrase une barre de chocolat par terre,"
and
makes ONE accent error, for example, I correct it on his/her paper
but
praise all the accents (s)he got right. But I'd nail the student for
missing the acute accent on a short "j'ai parle francais," type of
sentence. Much more important to correct writing, IMHO, than missing
the
acute on the first letter of "ecrase" in the above sentence, non? But
this discussion is an important one: "How do you grade a written
sentence?" What criteria do you use? For the student in French 4 who
writes "nous avons alles," or "nous sommes alle," do you give equal
or
different weight? I'd be interested in this whole question getting
discussed. Et vous?
Christopher Lowell
======================
97/02 From-> Walsh Cindy <CWALSH127@aol.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Recently in teaching Demonstrative adjectives and pronouns, I showed
the
differences the accent marks make between 'esta, esta, and esta'. (The
apostrophes are where the accent marks would be--don't know how to
do
that on AOL). I told them that if they didn't include the accent mark
that the word would be wrong.
I write a sentence on the board in English such as "Maria this at school
today." They all laugh and say Mrs. Walsh, you made a mistake! I then
tell them that that's what esta (to be) without the correct accent
mark
would look like to them! Then the ones who care make note and try
harder. I always teach the rules, and remind them of the rules as we
correct homework on the board.
Walsh Cindy
======================
97/02 From-> "Helen V. Jones" <hjones@pen.k12.va.us>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Today my Spanish III students were taking turns reading aloud a short
story in our textbook. I had to interrupt many times to remind them
that
the VOICE also accents words! Just one example to give you the idea:
exclamo or exclamO I kept asking them if they meant first person
singular present or third person singular preterit... changes the
meaning a bit, no?
Helen Jones
======================
97/02 From-> "Anna M. Gelinas" <gelinas.1@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
>On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, JULIA GUERRERO wrote: > EXCELENTE. POR FIN LOS MAESTROS SE ESTAN DANDO CUENTA QUE EL ACENTO > ES ABSOLUTAMENTE NECESARIO PARA ESCRIBIR ESPANOL. >
>Why are accents so important? I bet you that any intelligent and educated speaker of Spanish can read without any problem a text written with all the accents missing.
>RBoswell VestalNY
True-and many native speakers of Spanish don't use them when writing
informally. They are expected, however, in formal, academic writing.
So
when should we introduce them? Isn't it harder to learn after the fact?
Anna M. Gelinas
======================
97/02 From-> "Richard E. Boswell" <boswell@binghamton.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Sure, it's harder to learn after the fact. You should introduce them
from the very beginning and insist on their use. I am arguing against
a
draconian punishment for omitting them or getting them wrong.
Richard E. Boswell
======================
97/11 From-> Megan Horn <megrob@velocity.net>
Subject: accents and stresses
I was teaching today (I'm a student teacher) and I realized that my
Spanish III students didn't understand the rules for accents and such
relating to pronunciation. I gave a little impromptu mini-lesson, but
I
think I confused them more than they had been. Do any of you have any
tried and true ways in which to teach this that aren't confusing? Thanks
in advance...
Megan Horn
======================
97/11 From-> Cherice Montgomery <montgomery@feist.com>
Subject: Teaching Spanish Accent Rules
>I was teaching today (I'm a student teacher) and I realized that my Spanish III students didn't understand the rules for accents and such relating to pronunciation. I gave a little impromptu mini-lesson, but I think I confused them more than they had been. Do any of you have any tried and true ways in which to teach this that aren't confusing?
Megan,
We start with this poem (spoken almost like a rap):
If a word ends in a vowel, n, or s
The next-to-last syllable gets the stress
For everything else we stress the end
And where a word breaks the rules, we accent!
(Note the word "where" instead of "when" to remind them that the
syllable that is stressed during pronunciation (and which normally
wouldn't be according to the rules) is the place where they need to
put
the accent).
Then I give them words which serve as examples of each line of the poem.
Next, I distribute white boards and pronounce a number of words for
them--dictation-style (one of the ancillaries that comes with the Bravo
text has some nice exercises along these lines). Finally, students
are
asked to write each word on their boards and to decide where to place
the accents (if any are required).
The MOST important step is that they are asked at random to JUSTIFY
their answers using the rules when they hold the boards up for me to
scrutinize (this is pretty fast-paced).
After some practice, it begins to dawn on them that if they know that
a
word NEEDS an accent, the placement is easy because of the rules. They
also begin to realize that the accent rules make PRONUNCIATION of
unfamiliar words a snap.
Their biggest problem usually occurs when they do not know how a word
is
pronounced. It is tough to know that a word breaks the rules and
therefore requires an accent if one can't remember what it sounds like!
Consequently, this little lesson usually makes for a good rationale
for
the importance of input/listening exercises.
In summation--accentuation is a catch 22 in many respects. The accent
rules make pronunciation easy, but pronunciation determines where the
accents are placed. My main goal is to help students recognize this
connection and to teach them HOW to apply the rules. The rest tends
to
come with simple exposure and continued practice. I am sure that this
is
as clear as mud, but maybe something I said will elucidate the concept
for your students!
Cherice Montgomery
97/02 From-> Liz Klem <BKlem58263@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Accents
I gather there are many who would think the 1/4 point I mentioned is
a
low standard. Well, for the kids who study and care that 1/4 is enough
to make them get it right. I also take off for the "random" extra mark
that does not belong and we spend quality time on the (as mentioned)
simple rules.
However, the most common comment/complaint at conferences or in phone
callsis "my son/daughter can't spell in English, how can you expect
it
in Spanish." Obviously I explain how I can but we are in a district
that
believes in retaking every single test and accepting homework until
the
last minute of the grading period; not allowing spelling retakes is
a
hard line that causes me grief. I am considered quite a hard grader
as
it is. (not that I consider it so!) A favorite parent comment is "my
daughter/son really likes Spanish except for all that vocabulary."
Some
days I even laugh.
I have been approached for retakes on final exams on behalf of kids
who
admitted not studying in the first place and other such silliness.
In
talking to teachers in other departments, I hear that many of them
would
not consider taking off for spelling "unless it was really important"
and I had a "discussion" with an English teacher at lunch who loudly
proclaimed that it was not her job to teach spelling and that the kids
would just get it on their own--but she couldn't say how or when. So
you
may say that if you expect certain standards you get them but it depends
on your environment.
We have many wonderful kids who have lived with lax standards at many
levels and as I said if they care at all, even a small amount of penalty
does it. BTW, I do take off more if the accent mark changes the meaning
of the word. So much for differences.
Liz Klem
======================
97/02 From-> Elaine Winer <Win1358@aol.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
What are people's thoughts on taking away points from students when
they
have omitted accent marks on quizzes and tests?
Elaine Winer
======================
97/02 From-> Paul Conley <pconley@batnet.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Hi Elaine,
I take off 1/2 point for each missed accent mark, tilde or punto
interrogativo. It works for me.
Paul Conley
======================
97/02 From-> Liz Klem <BKlem58263@aol.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
In my limited experience if it's not worth points to the kids, they
won't ( most) worry about them. I would prefer that they write correctly
for the love of the language but it just isn't so. For a time I tried
to
be gentle teacher and ease beginning students into accents but found
they never found them important later.
We do spend time developing the reasons for them , how to predict and
their importance which convinces some learners but the points do it
for
the majority. If a word is worth 1 pt I take off 1/4 per accent but
only
use even fractions. It's adorable if they miss one accent on a page
of a
test and actually thank me for the "free" accent mark. Of course it
makes grading more of a chore and makes me feel quite anal at times
but
the student results are well worth it. I look forward to what others
have to say.
Liz Klem
======================
97/02 From-> "Michele B. Grund" <mgrund@csc.sctboces.org>
Subject: Re: accent marks
My first year teaching (five years ago) I used to take off points for
missed accents, etc., but I find that their spelling in Spanish (and
English) is so horrible, that I no longer can take points for accents
marks or they would all fail. I guess it all depends on the level of
students that you're dealing with. If they are good spellers, then
take
off a 1/2 point for missed accents. Hope this helps!
Michele Bonet-Grund
======================
97/02 From -> Bill (??)
Subject: Re: accent marks
Elaine Winer wrote:
>What are people's thoughts on taking away points from students when they have omitted accent marks on quizzes and tests?
Elaine,
I take off 1/4 point for each missed accent, tilde, and beginning
punctuation mark. The kids really hate that I do this, but it is
beginning to take effect. Those who study, now study these, those who
do
not study, won't study anyway.
I find it helpful since I have level 3 this year and they have no clue
as to accents. They put them wherever they feel like it. Put them where
they don't belong, leave them off where they do. It's a mess. Since
they
know that I take points off, they are being more conservative with
the
stray marks.
??
======================
97/02 From-> NICKISCH_CRAIG <nickcrai@isuux.isu.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Elaine Winer has an interesting post:
>What are people's thoughts on taking away points from students when they have omitted accent marks on quizzes and tests?
I never "take away points" - *ever*! Instead, I *count what is correct*
- and make suggestions about things that aren't, so that next time
more
will be. :)
So the only question is *how much the student got right*.
And, to Elaine's point - words which are missing diacritical marks are
simply incorrect, earning no credit.
'Glad I don't have to grade emails that way, tho. ;-)
Craig Nickisch
======================
97/02 From-> Robert Ponterio <PONTERIOR@SNYCORVA.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Re: accent marks
>What are people's thoughts on taking away points from students when they have omitted accent marks on quizzes and tests?
Accents are a part of spelling. As with any spelling errors, I evaluate
the seriousness of the error according to the nature of the error and
my
expectation that the student should be able to use the word/structure
at
the student's level.
When the error would lead to mispronunciation, interferes with
comprehension, or demonstrates basic lack of understanding of the way
the language works, I consider it more important.
(sorry for those who don't do accents in email)
pate / pâte
parle / parlé
a / à
The same is true for any spelling error. An error that changes the verb
tense is not the same as an error that might lead to mispronunciation
or
a different meaning or no real difference.
parlai / parlais / parlaient / parlé
prenne / prene
tout / toux
payons / paions
I have the same variable attitude towards agreement.
la robe vert
je les ai vu
la voiture que j'ai vu
ils se sont parlés
all represent very different kinds of errors of varying seriousness
(even for native speakers), and a particular student at a particular
level might not be expected to have the same level of mastery for all
of
them. I would certainly point them out (well, almost certainly - it
might depend on how many errors the particular student was making and
whether they had even seen the structure in question), but the degree
to
which I would count them in grading an activity would necessarily depend
on my goals for that activity.
I have given verb conjugation quizzes in advanced grammar classes where
the slightest error lost credit for the entire sentence. The same error
in an elementary class might be left unmarked. So the answer is that
I
might take off full credit for one accent, partial credit for another,
none for a third, and it would depend on many variables.
Robert Ponterio
======================
97/02 From-> James May <jaimemay@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
Paul writes:
<<I take off 1/2 point for each missed accent mark, tilde or punto
interrogativo. It works for me.>>
I do the same thing. However, I think it is worth pointing out that
many
*educated* native speakers do not use them accurately. When I was in
Ecuador every afternoon was devoted to an activity. One of the teachers
would come around and ask if you wanted to participate. When I answered
"yes" in Spanish, she always wrote "si" without an accent!! It drove
me
crazy but felt I shouldn't correct her since she was a native speaker.
I
once was invited to the home of a teacher in France. In the bathroom,
she wanted guests to wipe the sink after use; she had a written sign
that said that and then "merci" written with an accent cedille! I think
there should be some penalty for omitting accents, otherwise students
will not bother to even try to put them in.
James May
======================
97/02 From-> Joe and Karol Rudy <rudy@alpha.wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: accent marks
I always take points off for missed accents as I consider them part
of
the correct spelling of a word.
Karol Rudy
======================
97/02 From-> David Lenker <DJnHJ@aol.com>
Subject: Re: French accent marks--to count or not
It seems the discussion has changed a bit from accent marks to important
vs. unimportant accent marks. I definitely grade easier for some than
for others. In my classes, the verb conjugations are of the most
importance.
You can't write a sentence without a verb. In French, parle changes
meaning with an accent. In Spanish, esta changes meaning. I may take
a
half point for things we've covered a lot in class, and even ignore
things that have not been emphasized (after all, it's not the student's
fault if I don't emphasize a word.)
But my students know that if it is in a verb conjugation (especially
in
French) they had better look it up to be sure. It'll be a whole point
and sometimes 3 points if past participle agreement is involved.
David Lenker
======================
97/02 From-> "Richard E. Boswell" <boswell@binghamton.edu>
Subject: Re: accent marks
What are we: foreign language teachers or accountants? Certainly all
spelling errors should be taken into account when students write.
Accents are part of the spelling system and should be included, but
to
sit and count them, well, that's a lot of useless work. Instead, why
not
just mark them, or put them in, preferably the latter, and give a lower
grade than you would have given if the student had put them in himself?
Because the student will demand a precise accounting of your grading?
Who is he to tell you how to do your grading? You are a professional
and
can tell the difference between a B- and a C+. Grades should reflect
the
competence reflected on the test; they should not just be a mathematical
game.
Richard E. Boswell
96/10 From-> - Cheryl Riley <CheloR@aol.com>
Subject: Five rules for accents
Several of you wanted to see what the five rules for accents in Spanish
are, so I'm posting to the list - after I go over these with my
students, there are NEVER any problems with the why's of placement.
As
we encounter accent marks in the course of the daily lesson, I have
them
take out their Five Rules and decide for themselves which it is. Soon
enough, they don't need to rely on the written rules. Hope this helps!
1. To distinguish implied or stated interrogatives from
non-interrogative usage.
2. To distinguish between identically spelled words (si, el, mas, de,
este, and so on - with and without accents)
3. To distinguish between different tenses and persons
4. To give the weak "i" its own sound rather than merging into a
diphthong (rio, pais, imperfect endings, leido, etc, rather than veinte,
reino, and so on)
5. And the one that frequently causes the most confusion - "If a word
ends in a vowel, n, or s, the natural stress is on the second-to-last
syllable; with any other consonant, the natural stress is on the last
syllable. Any exceptions will carry an accent mark to show that it
is an
exception. (lapiz, cantandomelo, millon -with accent- millones without,
telefono, etc)"
And that's all there are, boys and girls. One exercise I give the kids
is to take a dictionary, find 10 words with accent marks and indicate
why it's there.
Sorry that the system doesn't support sending the accents over the
cyberwaves, but I'm assuming here that you all know where they're
supposed to be.... :-)
Cheryl Riley
======================
96/10 From-> Richard Lee <0002079903@mcimail.com>
Subject: Accent Marks and Syllable Stress
I wonder if there is still anybody out there interested in the topic
of
accent marks. In case there is, here is the way that I teach it.
The traditional rules (which are the ones taught to me also) are: 1.
Words ending in a,e,i,o,u,n,s are stressed on the next-to-last syllable.
2. All others are stressed on the last syllable. * Any variations must
be indicated with a written accent mark .
I was trying to find an easier way for the beginning students to
remember. The idea was to find a way to shorten the list so that they
wouldn't have to do so many mental checks, which take time and sometimes
are easy to forget. Also, the group doesn't seem to have any intrinsic
justification. By reversing the rules and defining the cases where
the
last syllable receives the stress, I can cut the list down to 4 cases
(although there are a few exceptions), and give them a memory aid to
help immediate recall. It has always seemed to me that a simple rule
is
better if it makes it easier for the kids to remember and apply it.
Lee's First Rule:
"Lizard" words are stressed on the last syllable. Lee's
Second Rule:
All others are stressed on the next-to-last syllable.
When the kids roll their eyeballs backward and ask what a "lizard" word
is I write the following examples on the blackboard.
papel
ajedrez
trabajar
libertad
Usually there is a bright student who catches on quickly, but if not
I
underline the last letter of each word, L,Z,R,D = "lizard" Now I know
that this is a gimmick, but they DO remember it.
With this I can then go on to say that any exceptions to these two rules
must be marked with a written accent.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. monosyllabic words differentiated in meaning by the
written accent
2. A handful of words which entered Spanish from the
Indian languages (place names, etc.) which end in "c", or some other
consonants (not likely to be in first year vocabulary)
3. "j" (the only word I can think of is "reloj")
The L,Z,R,D words in general seem to have had an "e" following the final
consonant historically, which was later dropped, leaving these words
stressed in the final syllable. It would appear that the underlying
preference historically speaking is for the stress to fall on the
next-to-last syllable, but the evolution of words has created
exceptions. Note: Latin infinitives ending in "---re", modern Italian,
Portuguese ("cidade"), etc. give evidence of this. I may be overlooking
something (my graduate school classes on the history of Spanish were
a
long time ago) but it seems to me that this rule formulation follows
what actually happened in the evolution of the language and will account
for the vast majority of authentic Spanish words (peninsular origin,
not
borrowed) and from experience I can attest to the ease with which the
students grasp, and apply, the rules. There are fewer items in the
check
list to remember. "Lizard" gives them a memory aid that is easy to
recall (and goofy enough to get their attention) and when the students
go on to the second year class they do remember it and the teacher
of
those sections has begun to use it, with success (unless she is just
humoring me).
I just thought that someone might find it interesting to take a look
from a different angle.
Richard Lee
======================
96/10 From-> Kerisa Baedke <BAEDKE@netins.net>
Subject: Re: Accent Marks and Syllable Stress
Listeros,
I have been too busy to read my mail for weeks. When I finally got
to it
I ended up deleting LOTS, more than I'd like just for the sake of time.
But I did happen to read Richard Lee's post on accentuation and a few
responses to it. Since the posts I read seem to be the latest ones
I
will post the rules that I learned and use in class and hope that they
were not previously posted.
1. LLANAS
these are words that end in vowels, n or s they are stressed on the
second to the last syllable this is the largest group of words
2. AGUDAS
these are words that end in a consonant other than n or s they are
stressed on the last syllable
this is a much smaller category
3. ESDRU'JULAS
these are words that are stressed on the antepenultimate (sp?) or third
syllable from
the end.
all esdru'julas have a written accent mark and esdru'jula is an example
of itself
4. SOBRE ESDRU'JULAS
example: esta'n traye'ndonoslo
these are words that have been made up the stress is on the fourth
syllable from the end they are all accented
the accent is put on to maintain the original stress of the word, in
this case trayendo
5. EXCEPCIONES
all excepciones to the above rule are accented
Plus, we do talk about words like si and si' which do not need a written
accent mark for pronunciation, rather to distinguish meaning. They
do
not then fit into 1-5.
That's the way I learned it and the way I teach it. My students seem
to
get it pretty well.
Kerisa Baedke
======================
97/02 From-> Nancy Frumkin <Nancy.Frumkin@ATLAS.MOA.NET>
Subject: Re: Accents
I think I'm the only teacher in our building who teaches "2 Rules of
Pronunciation and 1 Rule of Accents." I explain that Spanish was spoken
long before it was written down, and when Alfonso el Sabio decided
to
standardize the writing, he said, "Let's see what patterns we can find
that already occur in what we already know how to do --speaking. We've
got to avoid that quagmire the British have fallen into with that
through/though/rough nonsense. We want to write Spanish so that anyone
who can speak Spanish will be able to read out loud without sounding
like an IDIOT. Including, let's put a question mark and exclamation
mark
at the beginning of the sentence, so we know what to do before we
start."
Then, look at these words:
hablar, hablamos, hablan, cantas, canto, animal, ciudad, naciones,
profesor, profesora, profesores, actriz, etc. What pattern do you see
for where the tonic (voiced) stress (golpe) falls?
They like the irreverent (and teleological) approach to history --
because the point is not who did what and when, but how does the
language work?
For the second time I teach this, I add 3 or 4 additional "rules": se'
/
se, si'/ si, tu'/tu. de'/de, mi'/mi, ma's/mas; no accents on single
syllable preterits (or 4-letter vosotros), nor on the irreg prets.
The kids universally ask me, "Why didn't someone teach us this before?"
Beats me. Maybe I need to offer to share with my colleagues my
pre-written "emergency" lesson plans...
I take off 1/4 point for each accent missing/ misplaced, BUT I round
down at 1/2 (rounding up is an arbitrary convention, so I can be a
bitch
about accents, but be generous in my counting of them.) You have to
get
3 wrong to lose a full point, 7 wrong to lose 2 points.
But the internet will screw this all up.
Nancy Frumkin
======================
97/02 From-> Jordi Lluch <jordilluch@bcn.servicom.es>
Subject: STRESS MARK USAGE IN SPANISH.
Hello. I am a native spanish speaker and I can guarantee you that stress
marks are really important in most cases. Not only do they distinguish
words but they also indicate what syllable of the word has to be
stressed most which makes it much easier to understand and pronounce
Spanish properly. I do encourage Spanish teachers to be very demanding
when it comes to accent marks. When I teach my students I give them
the
following rules:
The tendency in Spanish is to stress the penultimate syllable of a word
that ends in a vowel or vowel +n/s ( which are most). All exceptions
to
this rule are marked by a stress mark on the vowel of the syllable
stressed.
Another tendency is to stress the last syllable of a word that ends
in a
consonant except n/s. All exceptions to this rule are marked by a stress
mark on the vowel of the syllable stressed. I think it is pretty
straightforward, isn't it?
Another way to explain the rules is the following, but I do prefer the
former:
Mark stress on all last stressed syllables (oxytone syllables) of words
when they end in a vowel or vowel + n/s. Mark stress on all next to
the
last stressed syllables (paroxytone syllables) of words when they end
in
a consonant except n/s. Mark stress on all antepenultimate stressed
syllables of words (proparoxytone syllables).
Often, many accents are used to distinguish different words (diacritical
accent marks). They distinguish meanings. E.g:
??
De (preposition) DÈ (2nd person imperative verb dar)
Si (condition) sÌ ( affirmative adv. or reflexive pronoun)
Miro (1st person sing. pres. ind.) MirÛ (3rd person sing. simple
past)
TomÈ (1sr person sing. simple past) Tome (3rd person sing. imperative)
Solo (alone) SÛlo (solamente) (only)
Aun (even) A·n (still, yet)
Jordi Lluch
======================
97/11 From-> George Henson <ghenson@FS7HOST.CCCCD.EDU>
Subject: Re: accents and stresses
Initially, I teach my students to learn the word with its accent. Later,
I explain that words ending in a vowel, s or n are naturally stressed
(no accent mark) on the penultimate (next-to-the-last) syllable, while
words ending in consonants (other than s or n) are stressed on the
last.
All words that break these rules carry a written accent mark. Since
Spanish strives to maintain original stress, written accent marks are
added or removed depending respectively on the addition or deletion
of
syllables. And all this can be done without discussing oxytones,
paroxytones and proparoxytones.
I do, however, point out that there are a goup of words called
"esdr=FAjulas" (all of which are accented on the antepenultimate),
of
which "esdr=FAjula" itself is a member. ??
George Henson
Contributors to this discussion
are:
Elaine Winer
Cindy Walsh
Antonio Ruiz Tinoco
Ron Takalo
Keith Swayne
Sue Steele
Keiko Schneider
Karol Rudy
Cheryl Riley
Robert Ponterio
Erwin Petri
Lynn Nuthals
Craig Nickisch
Cherice Montgomery
James May
Christopher Lowell
Jordi Lluch
David Lenker
Richard Lee
Liz Klem
Helen Jones
Catherine Jolivet
Megan Horn
George Henson
Michele Grund
Anna Gelinas
Nancy Frumkin
Gene Foldenauer
Francie Cutter
Paul Conley
Kathryn Briere
Richard Boswell
Mary Kathleen Blanchard
Marilyn Barrueta
Kerisa Baedke
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